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My VGC double battles team

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1 My VGC double battles team on Sun May 30, 2010 11:09 am

ZeroSum


N00B
Hey all,

I don't think I'll be able to compete in the VGCs this year, but it's fun to dream -- right? So I designed a team using the VGC rules. I haven't been able to playtest it all... obviously because I haven't raised any of the pokes due to the fact that I won't be competing.

Anyway, some constructive criticism would be nice, maybe there's something I completely overlooked.

Here's the lineup

Lead:
Giratina @ Leftovers
Impish
Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SpD

Will O Wisp
Rest
Sleep Talk
Dragon Claw


Lead #2:
Mewtwo @ Light Clay
Jolly
Pressure
252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 58 Spe

Reflect
Light Screen
Trick
Selfdestruct


Latios @ Life Orb
Timid
Levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Draco Meteor
Thunder
Grass Knot
Recover


Heatran @ Life Orb
Timid
Flash Fire
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Heat Wave
Earth Power
Dragon Pulse
Explosion


Backup:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Modest
Magnet Pull
252 SpA / 248 HP / 8 Def

Charge Beam
Flash Cannon
Protect
Explosion


Backup #2:
Salamence @ Life Orb
Jolly
Intimidate
252 HP / 180 Spe / 76 Def

Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Blast
Stone Edge


The idea is that I lead with Giratina and Mewtwo, set up dual screens, and sprinkle will o wisps, trick if i find it would be mean, and selfdestruct. Ideally, my opponent would only have two pokes left, so I could send in Heatran, do some damage, explode, and then Latios would clean up.

Thoughts?

2 Re: My VGC double battles team on Mon May 31, 2010 6:47 pm

Sixtails

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PUCL Crew
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While this is a pretty good VGC team, I can see three major flaws in it. First is that your team is far too special attack oriented. A Blissey could potentially destroy this team as the only physical attacking moves are Shadow Claw, Selfdestruct, and Explosion, one of which does not affect it and the other two hurt your own pokemon and are therefore risky. I know seeing a Blissey is unlikely, but it's possible and other special walls could still counter this team. The second problem is that you have Latios and Heatran both holding life orbs. According to the rules "Each Pokémon on a player's team may use held items, though no two Pokémon may hold the same item during battle." The third problem that I don't like Heatran as a third or fourth pokemon, simply because Explosion could hurt you if you're forced to use it late in the game. Hope this helps and good luck!

3 Re: My VGC double battles team on Mon May 31, 2010 8:14 pm

Toast

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PUCL Crew
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Alright, besides having two pokemon with life orb, which you're gonna have to fix regardless of any advice I give, I might as well rate this team, right?

I'm not sure why you're using the EV spreads that you're using, so explaining those might be good (I'm gonna guess they are kinda standard smogon sets slightly adjusted for VGC or something but am too lazy to check).

I think that I want to start this off with saying that I do love the self-destruct + giratina combo. It is kind of predictable, but it is also just flat-out good. Being able to explode without fear of what happens to your teammate is a really nice feature to have. I think the core of this team is actually quite good, but I'd recommend some changes to capitalize on those best.

Anyway, I think that Mewtwo should definitely have some other attacking move instead of reflect; physical attacks are really rare in the VGC metagame, and taking a turn to protect against something rare is hardly ever worth it. I would highly recommend putting in Grass Knot over Reflect to deal heavy damage to non-scarf kyogres. Trick isn't worth it either; you don't have the time to pull it off effectively. I'd recommend using protect instead; protect is amazing in VGC and lets you get a free turn if you see a fake-out user. Also, clay isn't worth it, since games hardly last more than 6-7 turns anyway. I would much rather have focus sash (and protect makes this even more valuable, since they most likely won't flinch you turn 1).

I don't think that sleep-talk giratina is really appropriate for this metagame. I have seen more offensive giratina sets, such as ones with either choice scarf or lum berry (to guard against sleep from stuff like smeargle) used to greater effect. Not to mention that relying on hitting with a 75% accuracy move that deals slow damage and halves the less used attacking stat in the VGC game makes it not exactly ideal. I would recommend a set using shadow force, arguably one of the best moves in VGC (it attacks through protect, gets Same-type attack bonus, AND gives you a free turn of protection? Sign me up!). I have had personal success in using Shadow Force, Dragon Claw, Shadow Sneak, and Protect, and I'd probably use lum berry or leftovers with that (although sitrus berry gets an honorable mention). Smeargle leads are that much of a pain.

Aside from that, I have never really liked heatran, and none of your pokemon are weak to fire moves, so switching in heatran loses its strategic value. Not sure what I'd replace it with, though. All I know is that heatran really doesn't help your team out that much.

Latios looks fine enough to me; I don't see too many of those being used, but it certainly isn't bad by any means. I might recommend palkia instead merely because palkia is just that good, but I don't see any true problems with latios. It might not get enough time to use recover, so protect might be better than it, but besides that, the set looks good enough (although maybe use blizzard over thunder to take advantage if they use hail? I dunno)

As for the team as a whole, the leads do well against most trick room teams. Giratina is awesome against TR, since shadow force lets you stall it out, and explosion puts huge holes in their team even before needing to stall them. Add in light screen, and they're doing half of what they usually are, making stalling out the rest of it a piece of cake. This does well against most anti-meta teams, since all you really have to do is just get down a light screen and sweep as normal. Throwing protect on your back pokemon might be useful as well, since protect is a godly move in VGC, no lie. This plays as another goodstuffs team, since it seems to be based off of the idea of getting down a screen (quickly, since mewtwo is so fast), booming, and then letting your back sweepers take care of the rest, and since it's such a vague category, it depends from match-up to match-up.

While this team isn't perfect against rain, and heatran is pretty much rendered useless, it does have light screen, which helps a lot, as well as the fact that giratina resists water-typed attacks, as does latios. Latios seems to be there to help a lot against that (especially with both thunder and grass knot). However, you really don't have a good answer to ice-typed attacks at all besides, well, heatran. And heatran a. is weak to water, the most used type in vgc, b. is weak to fighting which is used a lot because of dialga being weak to it + hitmontops being really common, c. becomes largely useless if rain is up + you can't control the weather since you don't have groudon (but I dont think he fits on this team) and d. just generally kinda sucks in vgc And that's not good. Heatran is definitely the weak link on this team. I'd probably use something like metagross instead; it also gets explosion, it's bulky, it gets a lot of really cool moves including the priority bullet punch, and can also help take care of shedinja if need-be with rock slide, since with heatran gone you should probably prepare against that (and the move can flinch stuff that's slower, i guess, lol). Latios compliments it well since it resists everything that metagross is weak to, as well. It gives you flexibility for an item to use as well. Occa (resists fire), shuca (resists ground), and even passho (resists water if you want to fare better in rain or something) berries all work on it, in addition to leftovers, sitrus berry, or even lum berry if nothing else is using it. Metagross I think would be way better. Steel attacks hit super effective against abomasnow, which is something to keep in mind.

Besides that, I think this is actually the workings of a good team and I hope that I made it better!


_________________________________
Team Shadow will attack you! They will come out of the shadows and attack you!

4 Re: My VGC double battles team on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:26 pm

ZeroSum


N00B
Thanks for the in-depth analysis guys...

But, after poking around on smogon and seeing some vgc videos on youtube, i've decided that my team needs a complete overhaul lol...

I love Giratina, and I've got one with great IVs that just needs EV'ed and taught some moves... so I'd love to use him.

So I'm leaning on mixing in a Zapdos with Discharge and Heat Wave to counter two of the more popular pokemon seen in VGC... Kyogore and Abomasnow.

I feel that Garchomp would pair well with Zapdos's discharge, and would pose a huge problem for the invariable Dialga and Palkia that are seen in the field as well...

For the last poke, I'm sort of looking for something that I could switch out Garchomp to protect him from attacks he's weak to... and I feel Metagross would be a good fit here, not only because his typing helps back up Garchomp, but he goes back to my initial Giratina / Explode combo.

That being said, here's my overhauled team

Garchomp @ Expert Belt
Outrage
Earthquake
Crunch
Protect

Zapdos @ Yache Berry
Discharge
Heat Wave
Air Cutter

For the last move, I'm torn between giving him Thunder due to the overabundance of Kyogores in the field, or giving him a protective move like Roost or Protect. I'm leaning on Protect so I can have Metagross explode with any of my team members in play.

Giratina @ Leftovers
Shadow Force
Stone Edge
Dragon Claw
Will O' Wisp

Metagross @ Life Orb
Meteor Mash
Ice Punch
Earthquake
Explosion


Anyway, let me know what you think of VGC team 2.0... I'm going to get to work breeding because Atlanta is this weekend, and my schedule changed, so I might actually be able to make it! Smile

5 Re: My VGC double battles team on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:49 am

Sixtails

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PUCL Crew
PUCL Crew
I would not use Giratina as an attacking poke, it's MUCH better as a wall. Keep in mind that it is part ghost, so using shadow force to avoid an explosion is unnecessary, as explosion will not damage it anyways. Garchomp's item seems quite useless, since it's moveset is limited in terms of typing and super effectiveness. For Zapdos, you could really go either way, as there should be enough rain teams to use thunder. Protect could also work, but keep in mind that you have two other pokes that can avoid it. Other than that, my only suggestion would be to not forget that you get two ubers, not just one. Most teams will be using two, so take advantage of them letting you use a second.

6 Re: My VGC double battles team on Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:44 pm

ZeroSum


N00B
So you recommend retooling Giratina, maybe take away stone edge and give him... which move? I'm very aware I can explode all over him and have him not take damage regardless of Shadow Force. I liked Toast's idea of using it because it "protects" from enemy attacks, and is a monster stab attack, so that's why it's in his move layout.

Which item do you recommend giving to Garchomp, if not the expert belt? I was hesitant to use a choice item in a double battle environment... are those fears unfounded?

Lastly, I was aware that I could use two ubers, but I really don't have time before the tourney to acquire another worthwhile one. My Groudon is Adamant, but has only 6 HP IVs, and 16 Atk IVs. I might be able to acquire a Palkia or Dialga, but truthfully... I hate those pokes, and I feel like it gives me too much dragon for one team.

Any more words of wisdom? All help is VERY appreciated... Thanks!

7 Re: My VGC double battles team on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:41 pm

Sixtails

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PUCL Crew
PUCL Crew
Typed up the whole response, then the stupid forums logged me out when I went to send it. Ok, Stone edge is fine if you continue to use an offensive giratina, but shadow force just gives them a free turn to use a stat boosting move, like swords dance or calm mind, that could screw you over. I agree that choice items are a bad idea, since it's 4v4 double battles, which means u basically can't switch. I can't think of anything better than focus sash right now for garchomp, but I'll think about it some more.

8 Re: My VGC double battles team on Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:13 pm

ZeroSum


N00B
Naw Six, two turn moves in doubles play aren't as bad as in single play... as long as you can't get hit for double damage by earthquakes or gusts or twisters (see: dig, fly) for one, you still have to worry about my second poke while my giratina uses shadow force. It's not necessarily a free turn or a free switch, because you've only got a 50/50 shot at guessing which poke i attacked. Remember the prevalence of protect in doubles play... shadow force operates similarly, if my giratina outspeeds you, he vanishes instantly and isn't able to be hit by your attack on that turn. The catch for me is that you know there's a ghost type attack coming at one of your pokes next turn, which may be your queue to switch in normal types or throw up protects of your own. On top of all that, stat boosting moves don't seem nearly as popular in doubles as they do in singles.

Anyway, still looking for input on garchomp's hold item, and a possible uber I could squeeze in. I do have a Groudon which may play similarly to garchomp....

My Groudon is Adamant with an IV spread of 6 / 13 / 26 / 30 / 22 / 28

The Garchomp i've bred is Jolly with IVs at 31 / 31 / 12 / 14 / 23 / 31

9 Re: My VGC double battles team on Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:55 pm

Sixtails

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PUCL Crew
PUCL Crew
That is true with shadow force, I realized that after I posted, but I'm not as good with double battle stuff. I was thinking something like suicune would still use CM, gyarados with DD, and you might still see some SDing garchomps. You could give Garchomp a lum or persim berry too, the reason I don't think the expert belt will work is because it only covers 8 types, which is usually not enough to use the belt. Although those IV's aren't great for groudon (especially his attack), it still might be better than garchomp due to his overall higher stats, you'll have to check on shoddy or something. You should consider weather very carefully however, since there will be tons of rain teams and groudon can easily get killed by a scarfed kyorge, even with a weakened water attack. I would say to use a t-tar or hippowdon with garchomp, but those would probably die too.

10 Re: My VGC double battles team on Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:39 pm

ZeroSum


N00B
Anyway, it's very moot. I'll still raise the team, but I'm not going to Atlanta -- simply not enough time to get ready, it's tomorrow!

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